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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine (Read 3598 times)
lg
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #18 - 12/31/21 at 18:05:39
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Hi

Concerning the last point raised by Tony Ro on the main line of the 4PA, that is after 9...Be7 10.Be2 0-0 11.0-0 f6 12.exf6 Bxf6 13.Qd2, the main line is 13...Qe7.  The books mention two other weaker alternatives, e.g, 13...Qd7 and a more interesting one (which you even see being played nowadays) with 13...Qe8 (with the idea of going Qg6/h5). Apparently, the reuftation is 14.Bg5 exchanging the dark squared bishops (removing a key defender of the Black side).
But what about playing 13...h6 first and then 14...Qe8?
Stockfish14 does not dislike (sorry for the double negation) this sequence.
I have not spent too much time on this variation before and thus, apologies, if someone has pointed out this here before.

Happy New Year to all
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #17 - 12/27/21 at 17:50:02
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CanadianClub wrote on 12/27/21 at 17:28:36:
My humble engine in my phone likes the position for Black after Qxd6, btw

Your phone is a lot stronger than me, so I'll take it!  Wink
  
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CanadianClub
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #16 - 12/27/21 at 17:28:36
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TonyRo wrote on 12/27/21 at 16:58:32:
CanadianClub wrote on 12/27/21 at 15:39:45:
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. c4 Nb6 4. b3

Is this really that bad?  Grin Black obviously should go 4...d6 and then it feels like White sort of has to Exchange. It's hard for me to believe that having b3 in the Exchange instead of d4 is an improvement, and indeed it looks interesting for Black to try and exploit this with 5...Qxd6. If White continues consistently with 6.Bb2 then it seems to me like 6...Bf5, 6...Nc6 or even 6...e5!? are very comfortable for Black. Maybe 6.d4 is better, but 6...Nc6 7.Bb2 Bf5 looks fine for Black, who seems more active than usual, frankly because b3 and Bb2 is overly committal and maybe a little lame in an Exchange structure.


Thx. I'll check all the lines first to get a better feeling of the whole opening (right now I have only checked briefly the exchange). My humble engine in my phone likes the position for Black after Qxd6, btw

You'll have news from me, guys.

Smiley

  
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TonyRo
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #15 - 12/27/21 at 16:58:32
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CanadianClub wrote on 12/27/21 at 15:39:45:
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. c4 Nb6 4. b3

Is this really that bad?  Grin Black obviously should go 4...d6 and then it feels like White sort of has to Exchange. It's hard for me to believe that having b3 in the Exchange instead of d4 is an improvement, and indeed it looks interesting for Black to try and exploit this with 5...Qxd6. If White continues consistently with 6.Bb2 then it seems to me like 6...Bf5, 6...Nc6 or even 6...e5!? are very comfortable for Black. Maybe 6.d4 is better, but 6...Nc6 7.Bb2 Bf5 looks fine for Black, who seems more active than usual, frankly because b3 and Bb2 is overly committal and maybe a little lame in an Exchange structure.
  
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CanadianClub
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #14 - 12/27/21 at 15:39:45
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I thinkI will stick with the Alekhine for some time, you guys convinced me. I have played some 3+0 and 2+1 blitz games and in ALL of them I got the exchange with Bg4, d5, Nc4, etc. Pleasant.

I also noticed an annoying line (I see there are a few in the Alekhine, Sad ): the Steiner 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. c4 Nb6 4. b3.  I think nobody is going to face this (not playing d4 by White is anti-principled), but it seems to me it's very interesting and easy by White (it would be my choice as W if I played 1.e4).

Thx !
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #13 - 12/27/21 at 13:52:13
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kylemeister wrote on 12/27/21 at 06:25:02:
TonyRo wrote on 12/27/21 at 00:53:31:
There is a correspondence chess master around 2400 named Loren Schmidt who's an Alekhine specialist

By the way, that name took me back -- I recalled it from the '70s.  (He became a USCF OTB master in that decade.)

But in the '70s his repertoire was totally different. He was playing 4...Bg4.
  
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #12 - 12/27/21 at 06:25:02
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TonyRo wrote on 12/27/21 at 00:53:31:
There is a correspondence chess master around 2400 named Loren Schmidt who's an Alekhine specialist

By the way, that name took me back -- I recalled it from the '70s.  (He became a USCF OTB master in that decade.)
  
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #11 - 12/27/21 at 05:58:49
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TonyRo wrote on 12/27/21 at 00:53:31:
It should be in the description already!

Under the Show More button. I will never get used to that idea on the web.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #10 - 12/27/21 at 00:56:19
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 12/26/21 at 17:27:56:
Have you looked closely at how Nunn did his Pirc books?

I actually haven't but that's a good idea. At some point it might be interesting to do a second edition of The Killer Sicilian, by the time I could finish it we'd be at around the decade mark anyway!  Grin
  
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #9 - 12/27/21 at 00:53:31
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 12/26/21 at 05:05:48:
@TonyRo - Good video, just the right mix of variations and opinions. I found your lichess study; were you going to link to it on the youtube page?

It should be in the description already! I did use this as an opportunity to link the youtube video from the study, so thanks!  Grin

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 12/26/21 at 05:05:48:
I found it amusing you pronounce Ivanchuk correctly but not Alekhine.

Yeah that is one I'm 100% certain I'm not pronouncing correctly, but pretty much all Americans say it as I do, and honestly I think it'd sound odd if I did pronounce it as it should be. Though I'll openly admit I'm a hypocrite here though - I get irritated if people mispronounce fianchetto or Nepo's full name.

lg wrote on 12/26/21 at 13:21:40:
I liked the video. It is a good summary of (your) ideas for the Alekhine which in , my opinion are quite sound. Perhaps you should write a book on the defence, who knows.

Thanks a lot lg, that means a lot coming from you!

lg wrote on 12/26/21 at 13:21:40:
I saw your comments on 9.Rc1 in the Sergev variation and also in line with many posts here (I also contributed a little). I agree with you that  it is also critical (nowadays I cannot get good replies against 9.d5, although I think that against 9.b3 Black is Ok if it delays castling)
in the main line, I agree that 9...Be7 is close to being the "only".

Yes, you and others greatly deserve credit for increasing my knowledge in the Alekhine. I too noticed during my prep for the video that 9.d5 in the Sergeev also wasn't trivial at all. I found Bauer's new book to be of almost no help btw - I am not sure what your feelings are on the text, but I was not impressed at all when checking his work. There is a correspondence chess master around 2400 named Loren Schmidt who's an Alekhine specialist that has mostly worked out 9...Be7 in the main line out to a draw, even after 15.Kh1, but it certainly doesn't strike me as easy or fun. The games are in the lichess Master's DB if you want to check them out. I am still searching for something that's a little more fun for Black. I do think currently most Alekhine players don't play the trickiest move orders to reach the main lines with 15.Kh1 or 15.Qc1 - it was too deep for a simple intro video, but for instance delaying ...Nc6 to allow the possibilities of ...Bb4 and ...c5, e.g. 6...Bf5!? 7.Nc3 e6 8.Be3?! (White should just play 8.Nf3 here) 8...Bb4! 9.Nf3 c5! etc. There's also the idea to play ...f6 before castles. If White routinely captures, then I think it's possible that Black gets a better position by ...Qe7 and ...O-O-O.

Kramnik's comments are interesting and I kind of agree. To me the 4...dxe5 are interesting but somehow a little inconsistent with the overarching strategy of the opening. Though I think the Kengis is interesting regardless - it's unlikely I'd ever play or recommend the Miles variation. In the 4...g6 and 12.Qc3! I did notice the same L.Schmidt had successfully defended with 12...Na6 quite a few times now, and a few of the games followed the same long and relatively forcing line exhibited here: https://lichess.org/pA2OkcqP. Food for thought - when I looked at it this didn't look super difficult for Black compared to other options I'd looked at.

lg wrote on 12/26/21 at 13:21:40:
Anyway, the reason why I am mentioning this line, is that
besides 7.a4, both 7.Qe2 and even the "softs" 7.0-0 are 7.exd6 are worth analysing if you want to have 4...g6 in your reportoire.

Yes, you're right! I had to keep the video short so not everything is covered, but didn't Greet recommend ones of the quieter moves in his repertoire book from Everyman long ago?

I also notice that during recording I routinely make notation errors, which is very irritating, because I'm generally very good at it and meticulous with correct notation, etc. I'm quite a good blindfold player for my rating, but there is something about talking and moving the pieces around while watching myself being recorded that causes me to mix up squares and pieces.  Angry Cheesy
  
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #8 - 12/26/21 at 17:27:56
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Quote:
Tony Rotella@youtube wrote:
I want to do one (Kalashnikov update) indeed, but I am sure how exactly I'm going to structure it or do it. ...

Have you looked closely at how Nunn did his Pirc books?
  • Nunn (1980) The Pirc for the Tournament Player
  • Nunn (1989) The Complete Pirc
  • Nunn (1993) New Ideas in the Pirc Defence
  • Nunn/McNab (1998) The Ultimate Pirc

These follow the same chapter order, it's very handy for many reasons.
  
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lg
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #7 - 12/26/21 at 13:21:40
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Tony:

I liked the video. It is a good summary of (your) ideas for the Alekhine which in , my opinion are quite sound. Perhaps you should write a book on the defence, who knows.
A few comments triggered from your video:

i) 4PA
I saw your comments on 9.Rc1 in the Sergev variation and also in line with many posts here (I also contributed a little). I agree with you that  it is also critical (nowadays I cannot get good replies against 9.d5, although I think that against 9.b3 Black is Ok if it delays castling)
in the main line, I agree that 9...Be7 is close to being the "only". I have spending some of my time with 9...Qd7 and noticed many positions with a computer evaluation close to 2.00 which, in my opinion, are not easy to play OTB. That is, for sure, I doubt I would win easily playing White.
Also, in some of these positions, letting an engine playing with another engine (or the same one) I notice that the computer evaluation of 2.00 is maintained after many (20,30) moves. When I see a computer evaluation of 2.00 I am expecting the game to end at move 25.

ii) 4.Nf3 g6
Well, I start with a quotation from Kramnik in a recent chessable course
"If you play the Alekhine then this would be my recommendation, and I would even go so far as to say that the whole idea of playing the Alekhine is (in my opinion) based on whether 4... g6 is playable or not. Otherwise I see no real prospects for Black after 4. Nf3"
Quite interesting although he states a few "untruths" about the Alekhine, one of them based on the game Tal-larsen that you brefly mention.
Saw also your comments on this line.
I agree with you that 7.Ng5 is one of the lines worth looking at, and the "irritating" line as you once called it, is
irritating. I am referring to the line after 7.Ng5 e6 (by the way, I have never seen a clear refutation of 7...d5) 8.Qf3 Qe7 9.Ne4 dxe5 10.dxe5. Perhaps, after 10...h6 11Nf6+ Kf8 12.Qc3, 12...Nd5 is Ok. Also, 9...h6 appers to be playable as well despite some mistrust from other analysers.
Anyway, the reason why I am mentioning this line, is that
besides 7.a4, both 7.Qe2 and even the "softs" 7.0-0 are 7.exd6 are worth analysing if you want to have 4...g6 in your reportoire.
Stay well

  
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #6 - 12/26/21 at 05:05:48
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@TonyRo - Good video, just the right mix of variations and opinions. I found your lichess study; were you going to link to it on the youtube page?

I found it amusing you pronounce Ivanchuk correctly but not Alekhine. Almost all Russian names have the stress on the second syllable: Al-YE-kin (although I know one Armenian who argues for Al-YO-kin). I remember a lecture where I was pronouncing Alekhine correctly, Bogoljubow incorrectly (should be Bo-GO-lyu-bof), and I got the most comments on that.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #5 - 12/26/21 at 00:34:08
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I threw a video up on my YT channel after a lot of requests outlining some basic theory in the Alekhine's Defense: https://youtu.be/ImC6zs9I2dE. Don't expect it to cover anything you don't already know lg!  Grin

I think all 3 main variations are challenging in their own way. I generally find the 4PA to be the most annoying myself - there are very few legit alternative to trudging down the main line (you can make the move orders tricky however) and even that is better for white. How much I'm not sure. In the Exchange I think Black can probably equalize in the Voronezh in a few ways - it seems like 9...e5 is probably easier but less double-edged and a little easier for White to handle. In the Classical you're never busted but White is nagging a tiny bit here and there.

It's a very reasonable practical choice in that White can't stop you, there are only 3 main variations, and most at club level will be less than optimally prepared. As I said in my video, it scores well and isn't easy to handle or prepare for as White. Good luck! Cool
  
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Re: Motivation & practical aspects of Alekhine
Reply #4 - 12/25/21 at 20:27:22
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Hi

sorry to get back to you. I was not referring to Pruijssers videoseries

I was referring to "Tony's recent video". Are you referring to Tony Rotella? And which video?

Thank you,
  
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